Not an MMO. Think Red Dead Redemption's multiplayer, but much more robust.

It'd better not be an MMO. The last GTA needs is to turn into an MMO.

The only thing that would get me to bother with it was to make it an MMO.

What do they mean by "persistent" if it's not an MMO? Because RDR was not a persistent world.

I think they're misusing the term "persistent." I think what they actually mean is that your character is persistent, not the world itself.

Ok, I've never played an MMO so I'm not clear on what defines a game as one so this may very well qualify as an MMO.

By persistent they refer to the fact that there are missions you can do that will unlock other missions and other stuff to do. You'll also be able to buy an apartment, own a garage, etc. which will be there for you every time you log in.

What's not clear to me is: since the map space is limited, and the number of players online at once is limited, if I buy apartment A and you also buy apartment A in another game, what will happen when we're all on the same server?

My theory (totally unproven by any info) is that it will be similar to something like Phantasy Star or something where everyone gets a room in X apt. building or something like that and there's only a few designs (or one design) and you just choose whose room to visit.

....which is completely inferior and has graphics that harken back to original xbox era quality

evilhomer just wants to shout at his television "ARE YOU A BAD ENOUGH DUDE TO RESCUE THE PRESIDENT WHILE WEARING AN UNCLE SAM OUTFIT AND A PATRIOTIC SUPERCANNON?"

Saint's Row 4 does look pretty awesome. Sort of like GTA and Crackdown had a baby and then dressed in clown outfits for all of its formative years.

Despite that in theory I should like Saints Row I've never been able to get into that series.

First of all, the cities have always sucked and lacked personality. Some cities in GTA have been better than others, granted, but even the blandest ones are better designed.

The music is Godawful. Sure, I can also play whatever I want, but I actually look forward to Rockstar's soundtracks. GTAIV was the lamest thus far, and even that one had Fela Kuti and David McAllum on it.

Finally, I don't know, I guess I just discovered that flying around in a jetpack as a 300 lb golden buddha sounds a lot more entertaining on paper rather than playing.

Admittedly, GTAIV was too sterile and boring, but to me the fun of a Sandbox game is not EVERYTHING IS ABSOLUTELY BONKERS. Rather, it's having a semi-realistic playground that behaves rather well on its own and then you try your hardest to discover where it breaks apart at the seams.

Sure, the fact that the developers may give you a few tools to help you in that regards (like, for example, the aforementioned jetpack) is great, but I found San Andreas extremely slow doling out of new interesting tools worked better for me than Saint Row's "I'm 3 missions in and I have a Harrier jet". Doing crazy shit in GTA is funny to me because everything else is fairly realistic to an extent, whereas when every aspect of your game is "CRAZY"/"WACKY" I just feel the humor becomes a one trick pony.

I really did love Crackdown however, so maybe I'll give 4 a try.

I forgot driving. Vehicles in Saints Row drove too well for me, which meant the variation from one car to the next was mostly cosmetic and related to achievable top speed.

A lot of people complained that in GTA the cars drive like shit. I'd say MOST of the cars in GTA drive like shit, and that's half the fun.

...Yeah i'm probably going to get saints row 4 anyways, but much later and for 20 dollars.

The gameplay footage of Saints Row 4 so far has made it look exactly like Saints Row 3

You people are insane. Saints Row is CLEARLY superior to GTA, and anyone who says otherwise is just a misogynist, threatened by the strong, independent female characters present in Saints Row. Check your privilege!

The only GTA that had truly excellent city-design was San Andreas. GTA3 was pretty good, for it's time, but then again, it was the ONLY such game of it's time. GTAIV's city design was bland and uninspired, while Vice City is *physically painful* to drive through.

Now, I'd like to give Rockstar the benefit of the doubt. After all, San Andres was a goddamn masterpiece, and a decade ago, I wouldn't have thought twice about throwing my lot in with GTA. Who wouldn't? But that was a decade ago. A decade ago, friends.

See, the problem with Rockstar Games is that the company's gone so far up it's own ass that it's now in danger of turning into the next EA. Yeah, GTA:SA was the greatest game of it's generation. Just like Master of Puppets was the greatest album of *it's* generation. And now, there's been ten years of shit, and what, we're just expected to forget about all that? Give 'em the benefit of the doubt? I'll be damned if Rockstar pulls a Metallica on me, by Jove. What as the last game they did, anyways? LA Noire? (or, as I like to call it, "Driver 4: Cutscnes of Fury") What are the odds they're going to just MAGICALLY turn things round and pull off the Second Coming of San Andreas? Now, I'm saying the game will be shit. I'm hoping it's going to be balls out, lock-the-door-and-stop-paying-your-bills awesome. But on a scale of One to Spore, for How Likely Is It To Not Live Up to the Hype, I'm giving it about a .6 Spore.

Now compare and contrast this to Saints Row, a series that's never been better, and which knows enough to A) pile on MORE gratuitous violence, not less and B) not take itself too seriously. Saints Row is a giant joke, yes, but ironically, the storyline is much richer and more engaging than anything GTA has ever offered (SA included!) The characters are nuanced, likeable, and delightfully over-the-top. It is at once a satire, yet also the purest expression of it's form. It's like GTA, if GWAR was put in charge, and I don't care who you are, you must admit that's awesome. They aren't promising as much with SRIV as Rockstar is with GTA5, but that just means there's less room for disappointment and failed ambition. Remember the lesson of Icarus and Daedalus, my friends! Do not fly too close to the sun, lest in your pride you lose it all.

And Adham, I must have misread you. Surely you mean to say that the music in *GTA* is Goddawful (and you're right, it is). Saints Row has Faith No More, Opeth, Devon Townsend, AND Tim & Eric on it's various soundtracks.

Also, motorcycles inspired by AKIRA, and John Cena taunts. Top that.

My choice is absolutely subjective, and as GTA has gone down the "serious" path (although are now slightly backtracking, thank God) I understand why Saint's Row has a market and a fanbase. It just never clicked with me.

As far as the music goes, that's not subjective: fuck Opeth and even Faith No More (and by god, I like Opeth and I'm a huge fan of Mike Patton), give me Radio Espantoso, The Scientist, Maria Callas, Fela Kuti, the Ohio Players, the Chakachas. Saints Row has occasionally included some tracks I like by bands I already know, GTA has always helped me expand my range of musical taste.

San Andreas does not hold up well to the test of time. GTA IV is wonderful, if you ignore playing Niko entirely and play only as Luis or Johnny. (My favorite is Johnny, when I jump on a chopper and wield a double barrel shotty it makes me feel like a muslim cavalryman)

To me a good sandbox game is like Batman. It needs a balance between fun and gritty seriousness to really work. Sam Houser's pursuit of virtual realism made GTA-IV boring enough that I keep stopping every time I try to play. Saints Row the Third was great until it dissolved into a cheap novelty act; in the end I had a bunch of hover vehicles to zip around in and silly/overkill weapons for murder sprees. I could download porn star skins from the website. But for some reason I wasn't having fun anymore.

I guess it takes more than just flash and toys to keep my attention, and while realism is important, a blaring cell phone and a heavy reliance on physics can hurt a sandbox game, too. I hope GTA-V is the next "San Andreas." I hope it involves me in a story that's rather serious but still takes the time to have something like a big rig descending on me during a chase.

From what I hear, Saint's Row 4 is a lot of fun, but since it gives you 80% of your powers right out of the gate, it takes very little effort to beat. If you have never played a Saint's Row game and would like to try one, I recommend 2. 2 was just enough of GTA (San Andreas era) mixed with over the top bullshit that it worked and made the game fun from beginning to end, and you actually still had to earn some stuff, which was modestly rewarding. SR3 was good, but tended to be way too top heavy with options and the storyline, though funny in places, was just too ridiculous even for SR standards. I'll play SR4 and probably enjoy it, but I think the series kind of needs to stop and become something else at this point.

"What you choose to do in that world..." *changes PowerPoint slide* "...is up to you." *changes PowerPoint slide* "With a wide array of new mechanics..."

"Thank you, Shannon."