Jesus, if the multipage expositions on the virtues of selfishness don't jazz you, there's always the "Fucking on a burlap sack" scene. Don't pass over that nugget, Cog.

The best critique I have ever heard w/ respect to Ayn Rand was the simple observation that humans are born with a great abundance of selfishness ( ask any parent ) so it's not clear why we need to encourage it. If we're not already in Utopia, perhaps selfishness itself might be at fault? It's certainly not the lack of it.

I had the same problem reading Isaac Asimov.

Asimov's robot stories are actually good sci-fi. They get away from the idea that Frankenstein will always rise up and destroy his creation and presents an operational framework where odd behavior from robots is the start of an intriguing story.

What sucks about his works (and that of a lot of "old masters") is that it's pretty obvious that they were written by scientists and engineers in the 1950's onward, which means they're often full of cultural baggage, predictions about technology and society that are WAY off, and other things that modern readers have a hard time getting past. It's a lot like reading Chaucer in high school, in some respects. Instead of Olde Englishe you have vacuum tubes and punch cards.

By the way, it's "shot across the bow" pronounced "bough" not "bow" as in "bow and arrow."

I can remember Anton LeVay making a similar argument.

I've got vacuum tubes and punch cards in my apartment, I should read some Asimov already.

I have never in my life actually heard that expression aloud.

You need then to befriend some privateers or pirates, as the bough be that of a ship and the shot is what your cannon fires. Dig?

Zirc: That's too high tech for me. I've got honeycomb inductors and relays here. But fuck Asimov. His laws of robotics were so stupid as to be violated by the very first practical application. No great seer of the future was he.

ermm. Bow, that is. But here we are back at textual confusion again. It's all very PoMo.

Asimov has cool stories and ideas. What bothers me about all the books I've read by him is the dialog between characters. It is almost always just people rattling off made up technical jargon. I guess you can't expect a scientist to write like a poet.


With that being said, I still like foundation and the robot series.

In the book or the TV show? In the book, he's a good villain. In the TV show, he was Tim Curry, and you ALWAYS root for Tim Curry.

I'm pretty sure the book was the first book in my life I couldn't actually bear to slog through, and that was when I was 11 or 12 and thought Stephen King was awesome.

Rand's detractors are a lot like most of her supporters. Most have not read her works.

Oh I've done the clifnotes version. Same reactions as cog, throughout. I can tell this will be an interesting series. Much more interesting than the century egg!

Ha! Cena, I've read most of her work, even the more horrible non-fiction stuff. To be fair, I was underage at the time, but yes there is no real excuse for this. It may have been a felony on her part, though.

I had to skim through the Fountainhead. Her books are so fucking boring it boggles my mind how popular they are.

The only book of her's I read was Anthem. It was assigned while I was in 10th grade and I thought it was pretty good at the time, granted it was only about 100 or so pages.

I read the Fountainhead after I was about 25 and still maintain it is one of my favorite books. *ducks under desk from hail of tomatoes*

I tried to read Atlas Shrugged and couldn't even make it through 1/3rd of it.

I look back on it as, The Fountainhead was ,to me, a new concept in terms of writing style and treated a taboo subject matter (some people are inherently better than others at certain things yet society exists to beat everyone into submission) with great care.

Also: it is a terrible and counter-productive life philosophy and only applies to very few people in very few specific situations. Inspiring nonetheless.

Then you'd probably love most of Orson Scott Card's stuff. It's very "woe to the Ubermensch who is oppressed and yet must save the lesser beings."

It must be said: the "Moe is Strength" meme could have some legs, Cog.

This is the best thing I've seen on POETV since last MLP video was posted.

All the mediocre people are ugly and worn out looking. I guess she was mediocre as well.

er, I *read Atlas Shrugged.

Not too far from my own experience. Ayn Rand writes terrific romance novels for 14 year old boys. It's not a genre I ever would have imagined, but it sure worked for her.

Here's the kind of thing that gets adult me all fired up. Ayn was so lazy, she didn't even bother to study enough Greek Mythology to understand the difference between Atlas and Prometheus. Clearly the later is what's at play; Atlas doesn't move the world, he just props the damn thing up. All the wires and motors and trains and filaments and things, those are all Prometheus. Especially that motor. Well, really it was a generator...

I think she just saw a statue in Manhattan.

Mythology aside I think she was just going for Atlas as he's imagined holding the world on his shoulders, as was the role of industrialists in her book.

Buns, at the time were you aware of Rand's negative views on homosexuals?

Yes, but it's a bit like the way modern capitalist use Jesus to promote free market economics. It grates on the ears; and speaks of a complete disdain for what the myths mean. Given that it is the central metaphor in the book, you might think Ayn would have given it a bit more thought? But who are we kidding, Ayn was a total hack.

I'd say try reading Atlas Shrugged, if only because you'll be able to laugh along with this series Cog is cooking up for us. It's a bit like a "Battlefield Earth" for intellectuals. You'll be howling with laughter, at all the wrong moments.

Cena,

No, I wasn't. And even if I were I probably would have rationalized them.

That being said, there are many philosophers, artists and writers who were racist, misogynist, homophobic whose work I can appreciate, respect and be influenced by.


for example, Frank Herbert was homophobic, Carl Sagan was a Jew.

KIDDING.

a magical misery tour
http://youtubedoubler.com/?video1=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com %2Fwatch%3Fv%3D6pOq4hyoX9g&start1=&video2=www.youtube.com%2Fwatch% 3Fv%3Dy80EK-s7bHM&start2=&authorName=support

Well get on with it then