So pretty much exactly what the USA did in the gulf.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Vincennes_(CG-49)

oh, and for future reference, the US government considers human life to be worth 0,000 per working adult and 0,000 for "non-wage earners" (ie, kids)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655#Medals_awarde d

Thanks SolRo, I have been trying to remember the details of the 'Iranian plane the USA blew up in the 80s' all day.


this whole story makes me so sad. There were so many young people on this plane i want to cry.

Ok, I cried a bit, now I have shed my tears for these poor people.

doesn't make it any better.

but never miss a chance to hate america

America never admitted that it did anything wrong in murdering 300 innocent people, just regreted it.

If you can't hate that, I'm not the guy being weird.

Thanks for bringing these people back to life, SolRo!

no point in remembering past atrocities unless it resurrects the victims!

And so you idiots know: I only brought this up as reference for when the US and Ukraine's warmongers start beating their favorite drum against Russia for shit unaffiliated Ukrainian rebels did.

Yeah, cool story, Moscow Jane. What are you really mad at?

Blind western warmongering fed by ukranian neo-nazis. That's the biggest thing I'm angry about

http://www.sassycats.com/2eagles1.jpg

As long as we're dragging other countries' airliner shootings into this, the Soviets' and Zimbabwe rebels' airliner shootings were worse, for having close visual contact on an obvious civilian airliner (then purposely hindering the recovery efforts), and murdering the survivors, respectively.

I hate to break up the "America did it too!" circlejerk, but Russians did this before, in '89, when they shot down a Korean Airlines flight.

I think it's right to point out we've essentially done the same thing because it can help people realize some humility and respect for the tragedy instead of cynically using it to our political, ideological, or strategic advantage; as an opportunity to blame our "enemies" which our government, and whoever else finds it profitable, will most certainly attempt.

But we've not seen anyone cynically using this to demand war with Russia. So far, all we've seen is SolRo cynically using this to attack the Ukraine and the United States! *Russian* terrorists blew up a plane. Not Neo-Nazis, not Americans; Russians. Unless you're going to claim that this whole thing is a CIA-sponsored false flag operation, please don't blame Obama. Wait for him to actually do something evil before turning this into a pro-Putin pity party.

EvilHomer: >>But we've not seen anyone cynically using this to demand war with Russia.

Took me a minute to realize what you were on about, Maru. The link you posted below, right?

OK, that's a bit more productive than just jumping straight to "blame Obama for everything", but McCain's grumblings are still not enough to justify turning this video into anything more than what it is: pro-Putin Russians murdering nearly three hundred innocent people. Mr McCain is swinging his dick around, yes, and that's to be expected; however, he stops well short of urging war. He seems to hint at war, but hedges heavily on increased sanctions and arms sales. Maybe even US-backed arms sales to the embattled Ukrainians would be going too far? I don't know, PoE might be able to have a lively debate about that. But we've got to keep things in perspective: the US government hasn't done anything wrong here, yet.

I interpret what SolRo said as "I brought it up because assholes will use it to agitate against legit Ukrainian Separatists and the Russian government for something they're probably not responsible for". This agitation doesn't have to be calls for war, as "warmonger" implies; anything that makes either look bad is good enough because, at least in the USA, our government wants us to support the current Ukraine government.

If US and Ukrainian officials (warmongers, neo-facists or not) try to smear the Russian government or Separatists for this, we should know that the same argument can be made towards the US government directly and the current Ukraine government - most governments really. In light of this, blame the terrorists/perpetrators, not anyone else unless we can prove it was more than just that. Making a political point and using something to your political advantage are different.

False-flags, blaming Obama, and a "pro-Putin pity party" are complete non-sequitur bullshit, no one mentioned any of that.

Nobody said anyone said this was a false flag, Mr Pete; I merely suggested false-flagging as one possible way to justify the anti-American narrative that certain individuals seem all too eager to jump to. "Blaming Obama" is not a non-sequitur, it is a callback to another video on the front page. I am establishing that SolRo is acting like Jon Voight, albeit substituting the politically-incorrect "Obama" (one of our most warmongering Presidents!) for the more nebulous but nonetheless functionally identical "America". And pitying Putin is totally what you people are doing.

Now, I don't disagree with you that the United States has done it's fair share of naughty things in the past. While we are demonstrably less bad than Putin and his KGB thugocracy, I would be the last person to dispute that it helps to be mindful of our own government's faults and failings, not to mention any ulterior motives that the ruling class may have in spinning this incident to one side or the other. And if Obama goes in front of Congress and tries to pull his best FDR impersonation, then I'm sure I'll be booing right along with you (at least until their war becomes unavoidable). Our overall goals are not in conflict.

But right here, right now? This isn't America's fault. This has nothing to do with pseudoNazis or Belgian bankers or French assholes with dreams of turning the Ukraine into their easternmost colonial bastion. This is just a bunch of very bad Russians doing a very bad thing.

You can suggest whatever you want and draw elaborate connections to whatever, I don't care, it has nothing to do with the point being made. Putin and legit Separatists do not deserve vitriol for this terrorist attack, that's one point, or one of mine at least. I doubt anyone pities poor Putin.

I don't believe it's "anti-american" to point out that the US has done horrible shit in the past just like it's not "anti-russian" to bring up horrible shit the USSR did in the past. Whether Putin's government is worse than Obama's is irrelevant.

You're right, this isn't America's fault. Another point, in sympathy with SolRo's, revolves around the fact that the US government ("America" if you want to call it that) and the Ukrainian government will use this terrorist attack to make the Putin Government and the Separatists look bad. This is ironic considering all the horrible garbage that the US and even the current Ukrainian government can be made to look bad for - for which they are actually responsible.

The outrage comes from the fact that US media/government routinely ignore such humbling facts and will predictably attempt to spin this event to, as I mentioned, bash the Russian government (which happens to be headed by Putin) and the Separatists unjustifiably. As I said in my last post: "...blame the terrorists/perpetrators, not anyone else unless we can prove it was more than just that." I suppose I should now add, "...and don't try to shame anyone else either."

If you wanna talk about the propensity of someone to discuss the foibles of their own government versus a foreign government we can, and then move on to the other "suggestions" you've brought up.


Shit, we need edits yo.

So why is this a terrorist attack?

I'd like to know how unintentionally mistaking a civilian craft for a military target magically turns into deliberate murder of civilians with the goal of some political gain.

Oh, right, they're pro-Russian rebels, must be terrorists.


and unlike the americans killing civilians (and defending the action), I actually do think the people responsible for shooting down the airplane should be arrested and face whatever charges are appropriate. Or do you think they should get medals EvilH?

They blew up a fucking plane full of people. What did they think the plane was going to do? What exactly was their motive in blowing up the plane? Since when is blowing up a plane not terrorism? If it was overthrowing a government by killing a plane filled with people, I'd say that's pretty heavy given that Putin has pretty much said they have the right to rebel. Which kind of means all bets are off.

We're not talking about a situation where people were shooting at each other.

Stop comparing this to literally everything the US has done and admit that it is an evil act. There's no justification for it, SolRo, so pull your head out of your ass.

Oh and while I'm on my tangent, the fact that we are calling this terrorism doesn't negate the fact that Blackwater/XE is a terrorist organization (because they totally fucking are) and committed atrocities in Iraq left and right.

so you have evidence that these people knowingly and deliberately targeted a civilian craft?

Guess their conversation above where they're shocked to find it was a civ aircraft was just a stage show?


What I'm comparing it to is when the US literally did the exact same thing (one might argue worse, since their airliner was in Iran's airspace), it wasn't called terrorism, and none of the navy officers involved even faced any criminal charges...hell, they got medals at the end of their tours (why let 300 dead brown civilians ruin a good service record?).

So what I want to know is why this is automatically, by default, terrorism while the US Navy got off without even admitting they did anything wrong.

5 for totally fucked up.

Dear SolRo: please stop. Just stop it. Stop being a douchebag.

SolRo, perhaps you missed my point so let me just say for the record

WE SHOULDN'T BE SHOOTING DOWN PLANELOADS FULL OF PEOPLE EVER

Can we agree on this?

The fact that the US Navy did this by mistake years ago does not change the very real tragedy that has occurred here so I'm not sure what you want. Do you want to marginalize its importance because you want people to feel bad about this other plane crash?

I don't want to tell people how to emotionally react to tragedy and neither should you. Let people react to this. A loss of human life is a loss of human life. Yes, the media doesn't do its job A LOT OF THE TIME. You want to change it? Go write an article and try to get it published or make a blog. Try to persuade people to think about this sort of thing but do it in a way where you aren't coming across as incredibly insensitive to what has just happened.

Peace out.

ROUS

Did I in any way deny that a plane was shot down, or that shooting down planes is bad?

What I'm pissed about is how you keep calling this a terrorist act while specifically saying what the US did was a mistake (note; the US, in court, never admitted to it being their fault, or their mistake). So -you're- the one implying here that one of these tragedies is much worse than the other.

SolRo, as someone that had a childhood where I was constantly an outsider, I relate to your hang up and all, but please get over it. I realize you have the need to stand up for Russia and all but now is not the time.

"So why is this a terrorist attack?

I'd like to know how unintentionally mistaking a civilian craft for a military target magically turns into deliberate murder of civilians with the goal of some political gain.

Oh, right, they're pro-Russian rebels, must be terrorists.


and unlike the americans killing civilians (and defending the action), I actually do think the people responsible for shooting down the airplane should be arrested and face whatever charges are appropriate."

So, blowing up a plain full of members of the military is NOT terrorism?

And no SolRo, I am not diminishing the importance of anyone's deaths, but this is much more recent and it's on everyone's minds. It's a very common social phenomenon; reacting to recent tragedy. It's also a complete contradiction that you would accuse me of diminishing the importance of people's deaths while trying to downplay this. Which is what you are doing when you bitch and moan about us wanting something to be done, and complaining that we don't feel bad about Iranians dying a few decades ago.

I'm not sure why you have so much anger over the completely natural reaction people are having to this. Maybe you should re-evaluate (no really) why you are reacting this way, and how it may have more to do with you feeling like you are forced to defend yourself for your Russian heritage. No one here is angry with you for being Russian. We are not attacking you, or anyone, for merely being Russian. And I don't think anyone is lumping all Russians together with terrorists.

But the people that did this are shit regardless of why they did it.

See, there you go again. According to you:

Russians accidentally shooting down civilian plane - Terrorism

Americans accidentally shooting down civilian plane - horrible mistake.




"So, blowing up a plain full of members of the military is NOT terrorism?"

When Israel blows up a building full of Hamas members, is that terrorism too?

When the USA destroys a terrorist training camp, is that itself terrorism?

When the Ukrainian government uses military jets to attack pro-Russian seperatists, is that not terrorism?

Is your double standard for western and non-western forces terrorism too?

yeah thats some bad juju

Aren't we still without a valid explanation of what happened to MH370?

Jump cut to Shatner staring out the cabin porthole at a smiling green gremlin pulling wires out of the engine.

a) if you don't think Putin has had people offed, you are living in a DREAM world and

b) I thought you were the one saying the rebels were Neo Nazis. I have read about the situation which is why you bringing it up shocked me.

c) and most importantly, please drink some non polonium filled green tea or something

sorry, that was supposed to go one thread down under solro's response

Collateral damage. Friendly fire. Civilian death. OUCH!

haha.

Like Putin's any better. WTF is your deal?

Yes, Putin is better than neo-Nazis.

Never thought I'd have to explain that Nazis are bad.

I'm drunk, so I missed it, but WHAT THE HELL DOES PUTIN HAVE TO DO WITH THIS?

Oh, right, everything bad that happens in Ukraine, including traffic accidents and cows farting, happen only because Putin orders it.

Holy shot calm down. So he's "better than neo Nazis"... well uh, that's something to put on his tombstone.

I also think its a little early to claim this 100% wasn't Russia's fault. Btw... they shot down a commuter plane in the eighties too.

So a former KGB operative who poisons his enemies in other countries with radioactive sushi is teh awesome in your book, eh? Love them persecutions of gays, tossing enemies in jail, giving formerly state-run enterprises to his pals, Putin's such an amazing guy.

And the former government was corrupt as hell. After all, the PM or whatever his title was was firmly in Putin's pocket, so no surprises there.

Let me know when the pseudo-nazis or their pals shoot down a passenger airline of their own.

Do we have to approve of one to hate what another stands for? Neo Nazis are well, evil, yes. I had no idea they were making up the bulk of Ukrainian separatist forces. As for Putin, he's poloniumazing when it comes to killing off his enemies, pretending like his shit doesn't stink and only America does the same spying shit I'm sure he's doing, keeping secret North Korean prison camps in Siberia, making deals to undo our currency entirely, make deals with his crony buddies to stuff 40 billion dollars of supposed Olympic money in their pockets, make being gay illegal, and write it all off as Western sensationalism.

As for this incident, it's sad. Lots of things are sad. Stop getting mad because people aren't even more sad over things that happened 30 years ago. It's all sad. This is fresher in people's minds. Calm down. It's not hypocrisy. It's recent. You're holding on to shit emotionally that happened a long time ago.

I know the world is a horrible place sometimes but it has beauty as well. Try to fill yourself with the comfort that this shit makes people think twice about their own inner hatreds, if they are lucky they pull away not wanting revenge but rather to try to make the world better by not resorting to the same senseless violence.

Funny how no connection or proof was ever found in regards to the polonium poisoning and Putin, yet a couple years of western media spinning it that way and all you idiots think Putin personally held the poor guy down and shoved an ingot of the stuff up his ass.

In another couple years I guess we'll have stories of how a shirtless Putin hiked over the ukranian border with a missile truck on his shoulders, spotted a civilian craft at 40,000ft with his bare eyes, and shot it down while letting out a super villain chortle.


And the neo-nazis aren't on the rebels side. For fucks sake, learn about what's going on there.

see the post I just wrote above.

also, if you think about it, most world leaders are complete dickheads so none of the charges against Putin should surprise you. It's not like Obama is any prize jewel in the morality department, but Putin is upping the ante all the fucking time and it's not necessary for the good of the Ukraine at all.

thing is, if anyone accuses a western leader of doing anything bad without concrete evidence, they're labeled a conspiracy theorist or extremist.

but if you can accuse Russia of whatever you want apparently.

I don't accuse them of just anything, but I think you are being overprotective as you have Russian heritage and you sound like you have a chip on your shoulder.

By pointing out the inconsistencies of logic in and quite frankly, dangerous path that Russia has been taking the last two years in terms of its many awful policies and incredibly corrupt leaders, I don't think it's too far off the mark.

Yeah, we have those problems, too. The thing is no one is debating you on the fact that the US has those problems, you are assuming that no one cares when they criticize Russia.

Of course I have a fuckin chip on my shoulder, I'm a Russian that has lived in America for over 20 years, listening to all the bigoted cold war propaganda remnants you people take for fact since I was a kid.

And you're surprised I'm getting pissed because your idiotic leaders and media are trying to start Cold War 2?

Its a totally different Russian leadership than the Cold War though. How do you have such a bleeding heart towards motherfucker Putin and his current mafioso state?

The whole "neo-nazis run Ukraine" thing is hyperbole bordering on outright propaganda.

it's just a lot easier to say than "ultra-right-wing ultra-nationalists that beat and kill pro-Russian civilians constantly"

Are you fucking kidding me?

In before "This is God given good/prophecy/proof that God hates fags."

Oh wait, I've been beaten to the punch.

http://wonkette.com/554565/bryan-fischer-thinking-good-thought s-about-aids-researchers-dying-on-plane-no-really-hes-thinking-goo d

God fucking damn it.

fuck fucking fuck

I wish God would manifest himself and punch Bryan Fischer in his shriveled up old dick.

And I worked with the Malaysian AIDS council about 3 summers ago while working on my practicum, and it is likely that some of my colleagues were on that plane. I have no idea at this moment.

yep

At least Putin isn't literally Hitler, calm down everyone.

Yeah, that stunt didn't help this shit. Especially since several of Putin's family members were killed by the Nazis.

Yeah, call him Hitler. That's not tactless at all.

Thank you for turning diplomacy into 4chan, genius.

I guess since we're using this mass-murder to make our favorite political attacks: Eric Holder did the same thing as Putin but at a smaller scale in his fast-and-furious scandal.

I'd never be surprised by my own ignorance, but is there really a distinction between "separatists who almost certainly shot down this civilian plane" and "legit separatists?"

If the Russian government provided the missiles and/or training to separatists who then used them to shoot down a civilian plane, it doesn't take a ton of spin to put both of them in a negative light.

technically the ukranian government provided the missles, since the rebels captured a ukranian AAA military base a while back.

but why learn such things? I'd rather be stupid and assume "The Russians Did It!"

I haven't read any reports that confirmed where they got the missiles and there's a lot of conflicting information out there. Unlike you, I'm not assuming anything (hence "IF"). If the separatists did it (a shrinking "if") then bashing the separatists would not be unjustified.

http://en.itar-tass.com/world/738262

they're been shooting down ukrianian government fighter jets and military transports since then.

or, let me guess, they didn't get missiles but shot down military fighter aircraft with sticks and rocks?

Alright, should we blame Ukraine for letting their missiles get stolen?

"Unlike you, I'm not assuming anything"

"If the Russian government provided the missiles and/or training to separatists who then used them to shoot down a civilian plane, it doesn't take a ton of spin to put both of them in a negative light."


gee, really?

I think you may not understand the word "if." Not entirely sure they did--not assuming anything yet, even though it doesn't seem that unlikely--but IF they did? Then yes, that's bad.

That's like the fox news tactic of "A lot of people are asking (really stupid, accusatory, derogatory, right-wing paranoia), we aren't asking it, but 'people' are"

oh, hey, another stupid westerner making up shit convenient to his world view.

http://en.itar-tass.com/world/738262

Don't just take SolRo's word for it--check out this state-owned Russian newspaper!

Man, it doesn't matter where they got them missiles, if those Hitler-moustache wearing SS officers in Ukraine's government would just say "Hey, that USSR thing we had was actually totes-awesome." and then join back with Russia, then that plane wouldn't have had to be shot down by the rebels.

If they would just give up territory to Russia (at least the territories with good natural resources), then there would be peace.

Oh shit, those sneaky Russians have a time machine!

that would explain how that news story is 20 days old!

hey namtar, you obviously don't know or care to know about what has been going on in Ukraine for the last few months, so with all due respect, shut your stupid cunt mouth.

Nothing implicating in that particular article but it's not at all surprising that you're browsing a Russian state owned site for news. I'm not particularly trusting anything right now, but the big picture seems to point towards the separatists. I actually don't think Russia's directly involved.

I've rarely seen such a defensive knee jerk reaction on here. Whatever, it's your country (I'm guessing), but nobody else on here would go to bat this hard for their government.

Hey, SolRo, go back to poe or bo news if you wanna tell people who have different opinions than you to shut up.

So with all do respect:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXNvusFPsBQ

dispose of them, vladimir putin
assume the controls, vladimir putin
SHOVE THAT CONTROL INTO A NOSEDIVE, VLADIMIR PUTIN

"article but it's not at all surprising that you're browsing a Russian state owned site for news"

I don't. I used it for a link.

I heard the story on NPR while driving.

BUT IT'S RUSSIAN IT MUST BE ALL LIES, DIRTY FILTHY RUSSIANS!

So weird that a Russian might get offended by all the anti-Russian rhetoric, bullshit, and outright lies.

Hey, Obama blaming Russia and accusing them of supplying the weapons too....I totally didn't see that coming.

The audio translation is accurate...but yeah, no evidence at all for some Russian spy/agent/whatever being one of the people talking.

Hey SolRo, if you're not getting paid to shill for Pooty you should get in on that sweet gravy cuz you're putting in the extra hours. Gotta give you that.

so Obama wasn't blaming Russia in the above video?

and the ukranian government has concrete evidence of their accusations?


If anyone here is shilling, it's you.

Putin makes the US lack-of-government look not-so-bad, so I gotta give your boy that much. USA! USA!

http://i.imgur.com/ScwhUpr.jpg

This is pretty incredible.

The best shilling I've ever seen in poeTV.

Five for Seperatist incompetence-fuelled evil, probably with Russian-supplied AA systems used on a plane they didn't bother to identify, then bragged about shooting down, then clumsily tried to delete from social media like a 17 year old jock thinking if they delete the posts about raping some girl off their facebook, it means nobody can prove they existed.

The hundred top AIDS researchers being collateral damage to this act of maliciously indifferent incompetence just adds that evil cherry to the shit sundae.

Sometimes I think if we didn't have shills like SolRo and gmork (NRA) we wouldn't have any posters left. :(

I usually call Americans dumb to troll, but holy shit are you two a pair of in-fucking-credibly stupid americans.

That's an ad hominem argument, SolRo.

im guessing he was done arguing and that's just an insult

Look, even a dumb American can do it!

Russians just aren't very perceptive or bright. Did you hear the one about how they mistook a Passenger Jet for a Ukrainian military transport plane?

http://gizmodo.com/a-tweetbot-caught-the-russian-govt-editing-flig ht-mh17-1607483459