| poeTV | Submit | Login   |

Reddit Digg Stumble Facebook

Help keep poeTV running


And please consider not blocking ads here. They help pay for the server. Pennies at a time. Literally.

Comment count is 38
Caminante Nocturno - 2016-11-11

This has nothing to do with the election. These kids are actually dyslexic Pink Floyd fans.


Accidie - 2016-11-12

wall build sooon!!!!!!


what's dyslexia?


Crackersmack - 2016-11-11

People in Michigan live in the hollowed-out post-industrial wasteland created by the trade policy that establishment Dems champion and that Hillary Clinton is the embodiment of.

There is probably enough of the rotting infrastructure left for some of these kids to be able to picture how much better it was a few decades ago, before their parent's and grandparent's jobs got shipped to Mexico so some scumbag political donor could throw another few billion dollars onto the pile.


Redford - 2016-11-11

...I am a strong supporter that we need to move more industrial and electronic jobs back into the united states. I also feel that Donal Trump, regardless of his electoral promises, has no goddam idea how to accomplish this.


Crackersmack - 2016-11-11

I agree with your post but I would add that derailing the TPP and at least investigating ways to undo NAFTA are a great start, and these are things that Trump has suggested.

That said, I have zero faith that he will attempt/will be allowed to attempt either of these things.


Bus_Aint_Comin - 2016-11-11

except that of the jobs lost in manufacturing between 1970 and now, between 80 and 90% were lost to automation, machinery, and robots, not outsourcing.

i totally agree that these areas have been destroyed economically, but there's something much more sinister afoot than just globalism. or at least, it's a globalism which isn't about outsourcing so much as removing opportunities for skilled labor in favor of automation. corporate obsession with externalization of costs is the real boogeyman here.


Oscar Wildcat - 2016-11-11

Yes, the new American factories will be largely robotic. There will be few new jobs for untrained workers from that exercise, just a lot of environmental devastation.

That said, Trump just yesterday promised to torpedo the TPP, and he certainly can do this very thing without any other support or permission, or so I have been told. I suspect he's been advised to start with this as an olive branch to the working left.


Crackersmack - 2016-11-11

Automation is always the boogeyman that's dragged out to shut down any discussion of labor rights or progressive trade policy. It's a lot more complicated than "human workers wants too much = robots do work" and the numbers are easy to spin.

Just assume that automation is inevitable. Whether a human worker makes $5 an hour or $50 an hour, chances are good that a machine is going to be cheaper to do the same job in the long term. What keeps EVERYTHING from being automated is startup cost, and that's a tremendous obstacle.

I don't agree with your 80-90% number but for the sake of argument we'll assume it's true. Why just give away the other 10-20% of manufacturing jobs? That's millions of people doing productive, skilled work. Buying houses, cars, paying taxes. Maybe you don't get 1950's Detroit again, but you might get early 1970's Detroit. That's a hell of a lot better than what it is now.

We are just asking for trade policy that favors American jobs in the American market instead of trade policy specifically designed to undermine us, like every other industrialized nation provides for it's citizens. It's just asking to please stop fucking working people over for the profit of a few. It analogous to the health care/insurance mess.


Crackersmack - 2016-11-11

Also I'm a CNC machinist and I basically am the automation boogeyman that replaced probably 5-10 manual machinists that would have done the equivalent job 100 years ago. It's a good paying job and there are a hell of a lot of us. And manual machinists still exist too. Like I said, it's a complicated argument and you should be suspicious when "oh no automation!" is used to justify paying people less.


Bort - 2016-11-11

Teenagers chant "build that wall" at Mexican classmates, and you read into it that they're mad about a decline in real wages. Talk about hearing only what you want to hear.


Oscar Wildcat - 2016-11-11

Oh, don't get me wrong, I'm nominally for cancelling these trade deals for quite a few reasons outside of this one. It's just that, well, by your own numbers, there are roughly an order of magnitude less jobs now for the same level of production. Your profession represented the previous wave of automation of production: the rise of CNC shops occurring between my fathers generation and mine. Now a new wave of automation is coming. Is another order of magnitude reduction in workforce possible? Without external regulation, we shall likely find out.


Oscar Wildcat - 2016-11-11

80% of teenagers can't even vote, Bort.

You should probably give some ear to Cracker's story. He's speaking for a sizeable percentage of white voters who would actually vote for a democratic candidate if they weren't such corporate tools. They did in fact vote for Barack Obama, so it's certainly possible. Yes, some of them are Klan's men. It's the ones that aren't that need to be addressed.


Crackersmack - 2016-11-11

Bort I'll dumb it down for you.

Broke ass ex-industrial workers: "I am poor and this really sucks. People that used to do my job weren't this poor. A bank stole my house. Also I voted for Obama in 2008 and 2012"

2016 Democrats: "Everything is great! Why are you so racist? I'm with her. Here's Lena Dunham's opinion. Wall Street is cool, right? Also I want you to compete for your job with people in Vietnam now."

Trump: "Mexicans did this to you. And shitty Democrat-endorsed trade deals like the TPP, which is happening right now during the election."

You are doubling-down on the racist shit that just failed spectacularly. Tell these people why Mexicans aren't the reason their parents are poor as fuck. Don't fucking lie to them though. Don't just call them racists. Learn this lesson or Trump is going to be president for fucking ever.


Crackersmack - 2016-11-11

Oscar: Like I said, automation is inevitable but not nearly as easy to implement as people with skin in the game would have you believe. And productivity increases exponentially as well. A modern CNC machinist can do the work of many manual machinists from generations ago but overall there is a whole lot more work to do now, and it levels out to an extent.


15th - 2016-11-11

i dunno, maybe all the unemployed factory workers should become graphic designers or something.

hope this helps


EvilHomer - 2016-11-11

They could get jobs in the Army. Always hiring.


Old_Zircon - 2016-11-11

"
Oscar Wildcat
Yes, the new American factories will be largely robotic. There will be few new jobs for untrained workers from that exercise, just a lot of environmental devastation.

That said, Trump just yesterday promised to torpedo the TPP, and he certainly can do this very thing without any other support or permission, or so I have been told. I suspect he's been advised to start with this as an olive branch to the working left."


Also promised to deport 1,000,000 in the first 100 days, so there's that.


Old_Zircon - 2016-11-11

As far as the "more jobs" thing, I don't have to explain my thoughts on that anymore because there is a book now that says everything I always have to say more clearly, in more depth, and with almost a century of empirical evidence to support it.

http://tinyurl.com/hyjluu5


Old_Zircon - 2016-11-11

But as far as the cultural resonance of job creation in the culture where we live now, and its role in what happened, Crackersmack seems to be on point here (I admit I skimmed the second half of this thread) even if the actual reality of the future is that, no, jobs are not coming back and the real question at hand, that NO candidate including Sanders acknowledged, is how are we going to handle the inevitable transition over the next few decades, when it's no longer possible to ignore the fact that we've lived in a world where there simply is not enough work for other people.

"there will be new jobs because someone has to make/service/design the machines that replaced the old jobs" hasn't been a valid argument since before the great depression, that is a simple mathematical fact. Up until sometime around the Carter administration that was hardly even a controversial statement, and not at all partisan.

But yeah, it's a solid little primer and I highly recommend it, it really explained a lot of the history and science behind things that for me at least have always been self-evidence simply by living in the USA and paying attention.


Oscar Wildcat - 2016-11-11

Cracker: you're forgetting something. Let's say you could afford to throw a _lot_ of money at the problem. The kind of money you get when you can borrow at .25% interest rate, like a bank can today. Well, those capital cost problems just disappear.

Watch what's happening right now to the transport driver's industry. It's likely that class of job will disappear entirely, except for token operators in some niche classes of transport. The only thing stopping that from happening right now is the government. This is an entirely new wave of automation, and the resulting labor disruptions will be seismic if allowed to proceed without limit. That book Zirc links to likely follows these trends and reasonably speculates on how you could have a resulting world that isn't some hellish dystopian fuck-0-sphere. In a word(s), Basic Income.


Bort - 2016-11-11

Crackersmack, I'd be more impressed if you'd SMARTEN things up for once. You're so in love with the notion that everyone's a secret Bernie supporter (whether they know it or not) and Those Democratic Fat-Cats are the real threat to all that is good and decent, you completely miss how Trump supporters come right out and say that they're more concerned with Mexicans and Muslims than they are with economic issues.

Side note, single payer went down in flames in Colorado this week, 79% - 21%. The plan was insolvent, and voters wisely rejected it ... as smart voters will until medical costs are contained enough to make single payer feasible. One of the millions of things Bernie never told you.


Bort - 2016-11-12

Oh, Russ Feingold went down in flames too in Wisconsin. Now how do you account for that? Even if people were voting against Hillary, why were they voting against a beloved fixture of Wisconsin politics who is regarded as a "clean" FDR Democrat? How come he couldn't win on the New Deal, when clearly that's what a majority of Midwestern types are clamoring for?


Oscar Wildcat - 2016-11-12

cracker writes: "I agree with your post but I would add that derailing the TPP and at least investigating ways to undo NAFTA are a great start, and these are things that Trump has suggested.
That said, I have zero faith that he will attempt/will be allowed to attempt either of these things."

Well, one of those things just did happen. The Wall St. Journal is now reporting that the TPP is DOA. Go read the story.


Bort - 2016-11-12

THe way things have been going, the media and the Left will finally start doing actual research on the TPP and discover that it wasn't a job-killing handout to corporations after all, and conclude that maybe we'd be better off if we'd stuck with it.

And before someone claims that the TPP would have let foreign governments change our laws and regulations, no it wouldn't have, which should be obvious to anyone who isn't a shrieking fucktard. For those who would like it explained, here's an article I've linked to over and over:

http://www.vox.com/2015/11/6/9683852/bernie-sanders-tpp


15th - 2016-11-11

This is so fucked up, I remember how rational and kind 7th graders were when Democrats were in power.


EvilHomer - 2016-11-11

The funny part is, they're still in power.

Also, if these kids are in 7th grade right now, that means the Democrats have held Washington for the full duration of their school lives. Clearly, Republicans are to blame. (thanks, Trump?)


Oscar Wildcat - 2016-11-11

Yes, I've been hearing just this thing from primary school teachers we know. Barack Obama is pretty universally loved by school kids, and for a lot of them, he's been president for life. What I am told is this is roughly like your parents leaving on a cruise to Europe for some unspecified period of time and now dad's creepy pedophile uncle and his scary friends are going to be taking care of you now. All smiles as they wave goodbye out the car window...flash back to stricken face, body sagging visibly like an animal taking a bullet.


dairyqueenlatifah - 2016-11-11

Color me impressed. When I was in 7th grade, not a single one of us knew shit about what was happening in politics and couldn't have given less of a shit about looking into it.


15th - 2016-11-11

They don't either. They just know it's controversial and probably rude and that's a middle schooler's bread and butter. I read some amazingly dumb article where parent called a 7 year old racist because she said "no black kids allowed" on the merry-go-round. Kids don't understand the implications or history yet. Save any shock and outrage for adults that should know better.


Scrotum H. Vainglorious - 2016-11-11

Middle school aged kids are the worst humans on the planet.


The Mothership - 2016-11-12

This. ^^^^


15th - 2016-11-12

For many, it's a time to experiment with being a horrible person. Most grow out of it, some stick with it.


Nominal - 2016-11-12

Most grow out of it, others become libertarians.


bawbag - 2016-11-12

^^^ for nominal, hah!


EvilHomer - 2016-11-12

Yeah! Those darn 7th graders, with their open borders, and their non-aggression principles, and their steadfast opposition to the wars in the Middle East!

Look at them all, the cheeky fuckers, chanting about the importance of free trade and expanding the H-1B visa program so more immigrants can live and work in the United States!


15th - 2016-11-12

I think it all finally set in for me today. I was trying to be optimistic or reflect inwards or some shit, but this is going to suck, really, really bad.


Bort - 2016-11-12

Cheer up, at least Hillary won't be trying to push for a $12 minimum wage rather than a $15 minimum wage.


Bort - 2016-11-12

Also, Hillary won't be trying to improve the ACA, which we know should be scrapped because it is a Republican plan. Not to be confused with the Republicans' plan to scrap the ACA.

See? All sorts of silver linings to BEELZELBITCH not getting into power!


Register or login To Post a Comment







Video content copyright the respective clip/station owners please see hosting site for more information.
Privacy Statement