garcet71283 - 2018-10-04
A shitshow
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jfcaron_ca - 2018-10-04
The article is quite good, I recommend reading it.
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simon666 - 2018-10-04
I started reading her 2011 paper in which he coins "White Fragility" but it's impossible to know what kind of claim she's making without reading through her source material. In some ways it seems like she's making psychological claims about people who are taken to be white and how there is a uniform enough experience based on being taken to be white to generalize a psychological disposition about those people. That would seem to be an empirical claim, but it seems like her paper is more about a theoretical plausibility of a unified psychological disposition. Unless, of course, she is citing actual empirical psychology papers, which you wouldn't know unless you read through her source material.
One question I have is whether or not fragility is the larger phenomenon and white fragility is just a particular kind or sub type of fragility more generally. If it is a sub type, then is there a body of scholarship on fragility more generally? If not, then it might be wondered if her concept of white fragility can scale up to fragility more generally. If not, what, if anything does it say about the concept of white fragility?
Maybe all these questions are answered in the paper. Again I only skimmed it. And maybe if one is more familiar with the source material these questions would be moot.
Whatever the case, this presents a typical challenge: How do we talk about race in a sensible and accurate way without needing a college degree and time to read a bunch of social science and psychology papers?
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You People Are Idiots - 2018-10-07 ty for taking the time to ask good questions simon btw
glad at least a couple of u thought on the post rather
than just reactin to whos posting it
consider me impressed that poe still has one or two of u who
give a post a fair crack and are cool enough to admit u didn't
go 2 deep into the source. i respect that
""""How do we talk about race in a sensible and accurate way""" is the meat of the sociologiical theory she presents but its widely accepted by peers in the field
once it gets past the academics the practice is a bit more just about holding up the mirror to our overwhelming white dominated culture and bein aware that when we as people individualize it + get our backs up at criticism of whiteness + race inequalities we're not helping ourselfs or those oppressed by the longstanding systemic side of racism
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15th  - 2018-10-04
This is really neat. Racial pathology is a progressive discipline. I can't wait to tell Cooter, turns out he was really ahead of the curve.
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simon666 - 2018-10-04 I think the claim is more along the lines that I construed in my comment. If you want to use pathology, maybe social pathology is more accurate here. I think the charitable reading is something like: race tracks a physical property (typically skin color) that typically does causally not track other physical or socially significant properties. Thus, you get false beliefs about people's intelligence or disposition towards violence based on possessing the tracing property. Although the race concepts do not produce accurate predictions people nevertheless employ them to make sense of the world, themselves, and one another in society. These concepts produce regularities that interact with our psychology, which then gets "tuned up" based on the regularities. White fragility seems to be a claim about how white people (people taken to be white) have been tuned up in such a way that stresses applied to them in virtue of the concepts around race, cause those people to respond in ways that indicate a fragility. At least that's my reading of her.
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You People Are Idiots - 2018-10-05 15th bringin some white fragility in thread
thank u for the live demonstration but robin's got this
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15th - 2018-10-05 I don't see how people can miss that the legitamization collective sin is incredibly dangerous. The majority will be the last to be affected. I didn't watch the lecture. Intersectionality is obviously real. Collectivist politics can't die soon enough, though.
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You People Are Idiots - 2018-10-05 "I didn't watch the lecture." yea obviously
still here's ur opinion on some pet subject thats got nothin to do with the video
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simon666 - 2018-10-05 To be fair, You Peeps, the term "White Fragility" is provocative. Assuming that "fragile" and "fragility" are typically understood as a negative traits of course those who have those traits predicated of them will take offense or object. If white people take offense and then that offense is trotted out as evidence of white fragility that is rhetorically underhanded and not particularly convincing. My intuition is that DiAngelo, however, approves of the provocativeness of the term because provoking feels morally justified. If she's trying to name a phenomenon in the world, a more descriptively apt name is certainly available. But, as I think you and I know, the name of the phenomenon is meant to provoke as a rhetorical strategy.
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You People Are Idiots - 2018-10-05 """the term "White Fragility" is provocative.""
she covers this in the work too
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Old_Zircon - 2018-10-05
I don't have time to watch this whole video but I just read the transcript of the NPR interview she did to promote the book. How is this any kind of revelation? This is stuff that's completely obvious if you go through life with a baseline self awareness. What am I missing here? It seems like she's saying the stuff Simon666 is saying, which is really obvious, I'm honestly having a hard time understanding how someone could even navigate through day to day social interactions without figuring this stuff out pretty quickly.
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casualcollapse - 2018-10-05
Didn't this say guaranteed to never leave the hopper?
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Scrimmjob - 2018-10-05 Guaranteed never to leave the hopper has been upgraded to: Guaranteed to be watched by no one.
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You People Are Idiots - 2018-10-05 ^^^^^^^^yupppppppppp
already the one guy up there going on about collectivist sin and some sort of edgelord politics shit even tho he hasn't watched it
its somethin else this place
actually worse than the ol forums
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15th - 2018-10-05 I didn't watch Fast and Furious 3-11 either. I'll bear the consequences of assuming 12 sucks. I'm not eating a hour long shit sandwich. I went through a liberal arts program already.
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You People Are Idiots - 2018-10-05 """i could argue against the point bein made but then id have 2 read or listen 2 the video instead heres my dumbass thesis on w/e the fuck i think collectivist politics is and some other bullshit that has nuthin 2 do with the subject""""""
thats you
"""""I went through a liberal arts program""
sure thing mr limbaugh tell me another
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You People Are Idiots - 2018-10-05 on the other hand u are doin a wonderful job illustratin several of robin's points that u refuse to bother reading or hearing so theres that
thanks for ur wildly offbase knee jerk replies
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15th - 2018-10-05 No problem.
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Gmork - 2018-10-05
you people are idiots is possibly the dumbest user to ever make an account on poetv and poered and poenews combined
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You People Are Idiots - 2018-10-05 also responding to this post with ur white fragility
the cherry on top you fuckin racist little bitch
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Marlon Brawndo - 2018-10-07 Ironically, telling people that they are evil inherently and they can't change being evil ever is actually evil! Congratulations!
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You People Are Idiots - 2018-10-07 ironic is u arguing so hard and defensively against a point not made at all in this video or DiAngelo's work and instead demonstrating the exact thing shes teachin about.
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Bort - 2018-10-06
It's a very old phenomenon that white progressives make for terrible allies to minorities. For all their noises about equality and color-blindness and so forth, they tend to not actually want to listen to minorities, much less entertain the possibility that their viewpoints are in any way incomplete or myopic. Indeed, to as much as bring up the possibility that white people might need to expand their perspective in any way is enough to get a lot of them to withdraw even such nominal support as they'd initially offered. Those are some remarkably fragile fee-fees.
This really is one of those situations where you have to be the change you want to see. That means growing thicker skin, being able to withstand criticism and even take some to heart. Bear in mind we're ALL at least a little racist; we're immersed in a highly racist society, some of it's bound to rub off. So treat it like personal hygiene: there is no shame in being prone to smelling bad if one doesn't wash, the shame is in not washing. None of us is exempt from the human condition; we smell bad if we don't wash, and we inadvertently pick up subtle regressive attitudes if we don't actively look for them and root them out. And you need to keep at it all your life, just as you never get so clean that you never need to bathe again. Commit to the process, not some mythical end condition.
Back in 2015/2016, there was a guy on the Salon forums who would, every couple days, lament "I will never understand why black people don't support Bernie". I would respond every time with links to a half dozen articles where black people spelled out exactly what they didn't like about Bernie. All evidence is that dude never read any of those articles. That's fragile white progressives in a nutshell: too fragile to even listen to criticism, however mild or tepid or diplomatic.
Listen to what people of color have to say about white people, and think about whether any of it applies to you. Some probably does. Not every criticism of white people is valid, and even the valid ones don't necessarily apply to everyone ... but some do apply to you, and to me, and the other guy. Be decent enough of a person to accept the criticism and improve yourself.
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You People Are Idiots - 2018-10-07 i see that reflex berner dig in there ha ha but puttin it aside ur part of the way right and thanks 4 responding thoughtfuly brot
not just white progressives but white people and culture in general in how we respond 2 minorities when the topic of race and racism comes up
white folks get incredibly defensve and the conversation never moves forward
her practical work in seminars helps the conversation beyond that first point and lets us get a look at ways in which we were holdin up implicit prejudices that have been baked into us from growin up in this society even when we think were """"not racist"" or have a 2D idea of what racism is eg. gmork in the other post where he lost his mind
she tries mainly to help folks grow past that first learned response of shutting down and absolutly refusing to hear hard truths about how what we do {and also just as much} how what we dont do impacts those minority folks
even {and oftn especially} when we think were ''''not racist'' but aren't really doin any introspection on how it is in the other guys shoes, or refusing to see that the power imbalance in racism means the effect on minority groups is hugely disproportionate compared to how it is in the other direction {even though a lot of white folk roll out the rote ''racism is racism'''''' chant while ignoring how different racism is in scale + effect dependin on ur minority[]majority status
anyway thanks again for the serious reply i expect the rest of the peanut gallery will be in 2 dump on this post some more so i appreciate what u said
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