I am also confused…with all this global attention to war crimes I thought people would be driven to demand justice for war crimes in the recent past, mass protests demanding investigations and justice. But it’s just “whataboutism” to seek any kind of justice for foreign dead brown people.

Or maybe it’s like a school shooting? …you can only demand gun reform -AFTER- everyone forgets about the shooting. Only thoughts and prayers allowed when everyone is paying attention.

Also so many bloodthirsty westerners hoping for and celebrating Russian deaths because of war crimes.

But none of that sentiment existed for American soldiers or Israeli soldiers or Ukrainian soldiers when they’ve committed war crimes, just scattered and ignored calls for investigations.

It’s almost like a lot of westerners consider Russians subhuman and deserving of extermination.

In what world do you live in where you have to mass-produce strawmen?

There were a multitude of stateside protests against Iraq / Afghanistan. Calling Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld war criminals isn't some arcane practice.

“It's wrong, but fuck Russia and Putin. May Ukraine keep killing those assholes” -cena mark

I know he’s a cartoon, but calling him a strawman is a little much.

How did you miss the part where I was talking about you?

"But none of that sentiment existed for American soldiers or Israeli soldiers or Ukrainian soldiers when they’ve committed war crimes".

These sentiments did and do exist, and your weak whataboutism comment suggests that maybe you didn't actually protest Cheney's wars, or you'd be well aware of how that was a thing that happened, and a thing that people are still demanding he pay for but the ICC has no jurisdiction for war crimes in Iraq, and Afghanistan is a "grey area" not worth pursuing because the architects of those wars are beyond power.

And there hasn't been a very loud, decades-long vocal opposition to Zionist occupation of the West Bank, Gaza Strip, Golan Heights, and Sinai, as well as criticism of American politicians and think tanks that are bought and paid for by Israel, right?

If your takeaway is this is a guerre du jour, you've been paying attention to the wrong things.

Now I'm fully convinced I'm ranting at the kid's table.

I don’t remember westerners hoping for the deaths of American or Israeli soldiers, and certainly not as widely and as publicly as you all hope for Russian death and suffering.

You will also in the same breath demand that all Russian civilians must suffer economic ruin (if not worse) for Putins war crimes while dismissing your own responsibilities for western war crimes because you protested those wars once or twice 20 years ago and that absolves westerners of all responsibility.

Again, I have read plenty of international concern over how Putin's war will affect the average Russian citizen so I don't know what ass you're pulling this from. Not really sure where you read your morning paper.

Broad strokes here:

Given that ≈ 70-80% of Russian news is propaganda, let’s look at the polls real quick.

If you’re unfamiliar with the recent history, it was VtsIOM, that was later absorbed by the Levada Center, which remained a singular bastion of independent Russian polling until 2016. Shocking, there was a takeover around that time.

Even with what little truth they can get out, the picture seems to be that the average Russian Boomer backs the war; the slightly younger folk are mostly apathetic because they were born into the USSR before being weaned into capitalism and more concerned with bank lines and grocery outages; the youth are the most informed and are the ones risking massive jail time for protests. I follow TG channels they organize on, and the videos and photos of how brutal the state counter-protests are gutting.

Big surprise that Putin is making a concentrated effort to douse and deplatform any social media threats, as he’s been after TG for a while.

And not all Russian soldiers are devils, but clearly loads of them are. You do know that they're all incredibly young, and Putin has been using Chechen barrier troops right? It’s possible to condemn Russia and still give respect to the citizens and soldiers that risked their conscience over their lives.

You can prattle on all you want, but I get paid to know these things, so if you keep limping back I’m going to have to bill you.

Apparently we're supposed to stop protesting the ongoing slaughter of Ukrainians and instead take to the streets to protest war crimes that took place a decade ago.

No one said stop. You should be demanding justice for both, otherwise you’re being hypocritical and accepting that some war crimes aren’t worth punishing.

I’m really amazed the mental gymnastics Americans will perform to deflect responsibility BECAUSE WHITE PEOPLE ARE DYING RIGHT NOW AND WE HAVE HAVE TO DO EVERYTHING TO SAVE WHITE PEOPLE!

The most brazen fucking example being George bush weighing in on the conflict. But also just the American government in general, after decades of committing war crimes and shielding Israel’s war crimes and assisting Saudi Arabia’s war crimes, etc. suddenly grew so very sensitive to the issue and demands investigations and justice.

The important issue IS that the -people- should demand consistency from their governments.

I know full well the American government doesn’t give two shits about the mountain of Arab bodies it created. But you should be demanding consistency right now because the issue is in the public consciousness and this may be the last time there is any chance to get some tangible justice for the millions of victims of various “not wars” waged in the Middle East.

But you will squander that chance while shouting ‘whataboutism’ to deflect GODDAMN HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF DEAD CIVILIANS.

I can’t express just how disgusting American deflection of their own responsibility for their war crimes is. It is obvious that collectively you find thousands of white Christian civilian deaths exponentially more important than millions of dead Arabs.

Derp derp derp, Putin is just defending his borders from duh Nazis.

You know the difference between the civilian catastrophe in Iraq and Ukraine?

Americans didn’t give a shit about killing Iraqis.

That’s it.

Hey, maybe Putin is under the same delusions as Rumsfeld and bush. ‘If you bomb their cities hard enough they’ll welcome you as liberators’