Nope, just the FOX News guy, and possibly you for thinking every controversy should be addressed with the South Park "BOTH sides are assholes!" school of political thought.

and when cena_mark jumps in here, he doesn't either.

I'm not an expert on this topic, however, I do know that the benefits of UAW workers are so high that the Big 3 can't be competitive.
Benefits are cool, but it doesn't make sense if said benefits are putting the company out of business.

A company that is unable to provide a an honest wage and benefits to its workers is a company that doesn't deserve to be in business in the first place.

The UAW wages are not honest wages because the workers are taking advantage of the company. The union has bullied the company so that it is in a position to pay all these benefits, and can no longer compete with the japanese.

You are not a libertarian.

You are all right. These companies should not be expected to be providing healthcare for life, and yet it would be criminal to cast them off unprotected. Like every other fucking nation on the planet, we need national health. Thank you, Cena Mark. You are a voice of reason. I hope everyone hears your clarion call to support our president's reforms.

Mark, I admire your selfless commitment to bringing the opinion of the common American to Poetv.

Cena, think for a moment (that made me laugh). What is the angry Union man saying?

We are shipping auto jobs overseas.
Do you know what cars will be hitting our shores soon? The Indian Tata and the Beijing Automotive Industry Holding Corp. vehicles. These cars will retail at below ,000. The corporations selling these cars will make extraordinary profits.

The workers in these factories will get zero benefits, although, as you say, these corporations will be "more competitive."

So certainly, you could go and by yourself a Tata for ,500. The point is that the money stays in America, the jobs stay in America, and ultimately that the workers have a right to live with decency and pride in their work. Arguably this was a lot easier to have sympathy over when America still made really great cars, but then, who's fault is it that the workers are making shitty cars, the workers? Or the execs who want to sell knockoff land rovers?

If you'd rather play global marketplace and zero rights, then by all means quit your job, give it to an Indian, and buy everything made in China. That's just the kind of guy you are.

Cena, I am CALLING YOU OUT

Bring this to POE-News. I don't think you have it in you. John Cena never walks away from a challenge, but you're totally an internet COWARD.

Makes sense. US car makers can't compete with the Japanese because we give more benefits to workers.

Except that we don't. The Japanese give more to their workers. They even keep on workers during downturns so they don't sacrifice experienced laborers when production ramps up. And its a vital part of their superior employee productivity. But other than that, airtight argument.

A 00 car would be a net economic benefit to a working dude in America, regardless of where it was manufactured. A typical GM car costs, what, three times that much, on the low end? Say we strike 00 off each car by eliminating benefits, you still make a significant saving. That means more surplus cash, which means more consumption, which means more work. Everyone will continue to appear to get richer.

What it is, is far more of a political problem than an economic one. There's significant studies done to show how the plummeting cost of manufacturing has unnaturally obscured the drastic wealth divide in America. We're as bad off as pre-revolutionary France at this point, but instead of orgies vs. starvation, we are presented with a sliding scale of variably visible consumption. This has only been possible because everything has become cheaper, not because people have become wealthier (in strictly economic terms they are better off, but economics has always been a poor judge of human realities.) I'm not sure what the theory is on how far this will stretch, but I'm guessing it will hit a breaking point sooner rather than later. The current economic situation has thrown a gear in the works, and suddenly people are realizing how poor they've been without knowing it. One could validly make the argument that social cohesion in America is in a race with the surplus labor in China. If the latter is exhausted first, wages and hence prices will be forced to rise, and pressure to relocate jobs will lessen. Before the Crisis, it seemed a pet project of many economists to predict a date this would happen - 2014, 2020 etc, just like with oil. It was getting pretty close to the present last time I heard anyone make the attempt, but obviously now the situation is reversing. China has rather belatedly realized their error in relying so heavily on exports and are attempting to jumpstart a significant domestic market, which could eventually accelerate this trend; and Obama's tight focus on progressive social programs could blunt things over here. But the very fact of his election could be interpreted as a sign that things are significantly fraying.

Irish: Only partly true. At least a third of the Japanese workforce is of workers on temporary contracts, who work the same hours for no benefits and less money. They are being rapidly dumped, creating a serious problem in Japan - it doesn't help that most are young - and bringing the Liberal Democratic Party to the very brink not only of defeat but actual collapse. Considering their post-war dominance, this almost amounts to a revolution. While it is true that Japanese corporations - culturally focused on the health of the entity, rather than shareholder value - do try to maintain more cohesion, opinion is very very divided on whether this is a good thing or not. I believe it is generally understood on this side of the Pacific to make them dominant in good times and terribly slow and uncertain in bad, whereas American corporations tend to have more flexibility and bounce back faster. I suspect much of this is wishful thinking, though. In reality, corporations in every culture strive to cut fat before the meat, holding on to their skilled core to the bitter end.

The real difference between Japan and America is, of course, fucking national health. I cannot repeat it enough.

National.

Fucking.

Health.

Would resolve all these dilemmas very nicely.

You've made some good points. But the businesses have to be profitable in order for anybody to keep their jobs. So if GM has to cut those benefits for the people to even have jobs, then they are doing them a favor.
Futurebot. I appreciate the invitation, but I really only have time for debates on POETV. Perhaps I will try posting on POE news later.

Yeah, I want to vote for him, too. He's like the anti-Michelle Bachmann.

I am truly excited about this year's starting mayoral lineup. They play these guys right, I think we're looking at complete donkey dominance for years to come. Although you gotta remember, #1 draft pick Gavin Newsom, stumbling in the preseason and playing injured. You got to hope a young guy like him can bounce back from that, but I really think the Dem's were hoping for more. They've brought brash hopeful Cory Booker up to fill the spot, but is he too raw, too untested? We'll have to find out... on the field.

When we come back: Michael Bloomberg gambled everything on becoming a free agent, but now he looks increasingly desperate as team after team turn him down. Has he already peaked? Have his dreams of glory been... fumbled?

Don't touch that dial.

(music)

Well fuck, Democrats are going to do well for a while regardless. Most people remain loyal to the party they vote for in their first election. This year, it was 66% of people 18-29 voting Democrat. Unless Obama fucks up royally, we're likely to see a string of Democrats for a while.

A very, very long while.
For a lot of reasons.
Dems control NY state congress for the first time in decades, and the governor's seat. If it's like that in 2011, NY will get redistricted Texas-style. We also have the census coming up, which is important in the redistricting process, and who's running the census? It's basically Rahm.

So even if Republicans are able to raise shitloads of money for the RNC like they did in the tail end of the campaign, they are still fighting against the system, and against a slough of very popular senators.

There's Lansing, AL now?

How you came to this conclusion boggles my mind

they're both amazingly retarded

how is the mayor retarded, seriously i would like some elaboration on this

Conversely, his balls make his hands look small.