Reasonably sure god doesn't exist but stuff like this makes me kind of wonder if satan might be real. Sometimes evil seems a little too ironic to be natural.

I'm sure the right wing government there is absolutely thrilled by the comparison. State power, baby!

This is what I said about the US when Trump was elected. We're full blown nazis now! Who cares if you didn't support Trump or the GOP you fucking nazi pieces of shit.

\America is awful, but not currently nazi.

Israel set up an apartheid state, forced people into a massive concentration camp and is now gearing up for ethnic cleansing.

That is straight-up nazi sht.

Yeah good. So you're seeing my point. A big portion of the US populace is racist and the president was racist and emboldened racists and white nationalists. And there is a big portion of the population that either directly supported this position or is okay with it.

Yet there is another half of the country (perhaps larger portion) that does not endorse or support this neo-nazi, white nationalism.

It would be a mistake to judge America as whole based on who has the current political power. So, why judge all of Israel (and the Israeli Jews) as a whole for who has the current political power?

By analogy, if it doesn't make sense to call the US nazi when a racist president supports and endorses white nationalist neo-nazis because not all America shares this view, it doesn't make sense to call Israel nazi because some leaders speak as if the Palestinians are subhuman or not worthy of respect.

There is Israel (the state) and then there are the people of Israel, a large number of which don't support what their government is doing.

Just the same, there is Hamas and then there are the Palestinian people.

Israel, not to be confused with Jews or even the Israeli citizens, has gone full-blown nazi.

Nah, most Israeli citizens support this too. Not all of them obviously, but definitely a very solid majority of them. And many that tell you that they don't support it will say something different when you aren't around.

And the west bank is the exact same bomb burning with a slower fuse.

Killing civilians is bad.

"bullies are bad, but nerds should be bullied. I'm an intellectual."

I mean people are like "What Hamas did could never ever be ok, no matter what Israel has done" and then turn around and be like "Sure, use white phosphorus on a children's hospital; whatever it takes to stop terrorists is fine." It's insane.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/10/13/israeli-babies-a nd-children-pictured-chilling-hamas-video/

"Hamas has released chilling footage that appears to show terrorists picking up and cradling Israeli babies and small children."

Israel talks a bunch about how Hamas kills children, Hamas releases video of them being nice to babies like "here's video of us not killing babies" and this is reported as "chilling footage".

I don't think I've ever unironically used the adjective "kafkaesque," but there you go.

Let's not forget:

"Hundreds of Israelis were murder by Hamas terrorists. Thousands of Palestinians died."

And you seem like the smuggest asshole in the world. Just stop typing. You know shit. Nobody knows anything. Everything is agitprop. You’re not contributing value and you have nothing useful to add.

Hey, as a protestant, do you denounce the anti-semite Martin Luther?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Jews_and_Their_Lies

Gb2 Catholic Answers Live.

Hey, this guy refuses to denounce anti-semitism!

Read the opinions of literally any theologian prior to World War 2. Then read some Foucault and Baudrillard, follow that up with a good hard think about Hiroshima’s influence on Andy Warhol, and then stop quote-tweeting Mother Anjelica, you cultural illiterate.

Happy to denounce Marty Lures, and I’ll throw in Calvin and Zwingli, you’re doing “Let’s Go Brandon” and I’m telling you we Non-Conformists legit don’t care if you say “Fuck Biden”. We just don’t care. We don’t lionize the past, we don’t do saints.

Read a book, read a book, read a motherfucking book.

Hey cog. STOP MEMEING

Praise from Memesar.

2000 Palestinians dead so far, hundreds of children, and you don’t blame Israel for any of it.

Get fucked and fuck Israel/zionists

Or, alternately, you're the antisemite for conflating Zionists with Jewish people

You bring up the Geneva conventions in order to defend the IDF? Seriously? How detached from reality are you?

Fuck anti-semites; opposition to the genocidal campaigns of the state of Israel is not anti-semitic. Killing civilians is bad.

So you're saying all blame is placed solely on the Palestinians, even the civilians living under a military dictatorship, and the one and only fault of Netenyahu's government is not taking aggressive action against Palestine fast enough?

Why don't Palestinian civilians get the same pass for living under a shitty government that you give to Israeli civilians? Which of those two at least gets to vote on their leaders?

Had the targets solely been military bases and personnel, would your opinion change at all? Would Israel's? Would the world's?

"So you're saying all blame is placed solely on the Palestinians"
- no. Read my post; Hamas and Palestinians are distinct. There is more than one sect of power in Palestine and Hamas is one of them only; numerous Palestinians have nothing to do with Hamas at all; the blame for the surprise attack lies on Hamas and those powers that funded and supplied them for this campaign, namely Iranian weaponry and equipment and interests. They are to blame for the killing of over 1000 Jews, mostly civilians just in their homes trying to live their lives on their holy day.

"Or, alternately, you're the antisemite for conflating Zionists with Jewish people"

And you're the antisemite for excusing hate speech and crassness by trying to disentangle Zionists from Jewish people to excuse it, I think what you may want to do is look up a handy Venn diagram for how zionists and jewish people relate. Maybe this will help you? https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-36160928 "But some say "Zionist" can be used as a coded attack on Jews, while others say the Israeli government and its supporters are deliberately confusing anti-Zionism with anti-Semitism to avoid criticism." Nice dog whistle in other words.

"You bring up the Geneva conventions in order to defend the IDF?" Pretty sure I brought up the Geneva conventions to point out the atrocities of Hamas here and how the retaliation against them should be both closely monitored by the UN but also, understandable given the flagrant disregard Hamas shows for human life and noncombatants. Keeping hostages only continues to encourage the IDF to act because the IDF literally has no choice.

All of the replies to my post continue to emphasize and point out my key point: Your extremist opinions are causing you all to become crass to the point of excusing terrorist actions, which is really fascinating to see. Obviously, the "justified victim" mentality you're forming is pretty out of place here, and seeing you all post this way is only further confirming a sadness I have that humanity as a whole is slowly forgetting an ethical backbone as you guys slip into forgetting what it might actually be like to be the victims in this incident; either palestinian or Israeli. The MAJORITY of palestinians; and I mean approximately 2 million people here, are victims. The murdered Israeli civilians, are also victims. The primary perpetrators are interests that wish to continue to destabilize Israel further. Anti-zionism IS anti-semitism, thanks to dog-whistle politics becoming the norm though you guys appear to still fail to see what you are really saying.

I hope you all read closely what I am explaining to you, because this forum might just be the only place that reason is going to come your way, because who the fuck knows what echo chambers you all are using to justify these words.

What would reasonable and appropriate Palestinian response to the apartheid look like?

It’s a collective suicide imposed by a small minority upon the rest of the community. Yeah, there’s a ton of history and tit for tat. That is not really being debated. There is no debate. All the armchair analysis by uninvolved parties is nothing but rumination. Shit sucks, everybody knew this would happen, there was no question that this was inevitable. Positively nobody is surprised. I hope the rent was at least low for those who chose to move their families next to the Gaza wall, because that is the major lesson to be learned here: maybe don’t move next door.

I don’t know what the solution is, but we went through this with the Massacre of Acre a thousand years ago, and zero lessons were learned because that was just (boo! hiss!) mean ol’ Crusaders. I can’t contribute in any meaningful way, so I am also not going to wave my hands around in despair over something happening on the other side of the planet. Pity, yes, but that’s a dry nipple after the last eight years. The meat grinder was built long before I was born and will continue to grind long after I’m dead, nobody needs my analysis.

You took a lot of words to say the same thing that you said me attributing to defenders of Israel was anti-semitic:

"Killing civilians is bad; therefore we must kill civilians."

The only difference between Hamas and Israel is that Israel has a much higher body count.

Calling criticism of Israel bombing ambulances and hospitals anti-semetic is obviously absurd, and is an offense to the memory of the Holocaust. It's perverse. You should be ashamed.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/10/world/middleeast/gaza-israe l-airstrikes.html

Save it for the Jill Stein rally.

If Israelis want to take out Hamas they can go into Gaza on foot and clear buildings one by one to minimize civilian casualties

But Israelis are cowards and Nazis, so they’d rather bomb every moving brown human in Gaza before sending in tanks to shoot any moving brown human left before the soldiers walk over the rubble and corpses to declare victory, and maybe shoot any remaining witnesses.

It’s tactical ethnic cleansing.

Watch them annex north Gaza “for Israeli safety”, or all of it if they can fool Egypt into accepting the 2.4 million refugees they created

The narrative seems to be condemning the Palestinians and saying they deserve what they get, unless they go through unrealistic or outright impossible steps (overthrowing their de facto military dictatorship, evacuating over 1 million people in a couple days).

Then declaring Israeli actions should never be questioned or challenged in any meaningful way, and never demanding extremely realistic steps that could be taken by the side with all the power (forcible evictions, carte blanche for settlers, stop bombing the press).

Have another

Fuck Israel

"all the Israelis did was poison water, pour cement into wells, use poison gas, and burn thousands of children with burning white phosphorus. They committing genocidal acts in self defense. I'm so smart." Love me I'm a liberal kinda bullshit

Here's the part where you completely fail to post to any meaningful evidence of all those accusations you just flung at the IDF. Go for it, genius. Show us the proof. Oh wait, you can't?

I saw some 'identifying misinformation' posts on twitter that debunked pictures alleging Israel was using white phosphorus in Gaza in the last few days. The photo that supposedly shows this happening was actually a photo of white phosphorus being used in Ukraine by the Russians.

You can google stuff. Wikipedia has a convenient list.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_war_crimes_agains t_Israel

Here's one tiny bit of it.

"IDF use of human shields
On 24 March of 2009, a report from the UN team responsible for the protection of children in war zones was released: it found "hundreds" of violations of the rights of children and accused Israeli soldiers of using children as human shields, bulldozing a home with a woman and child still inside, and shelling a building they had ordered civilians into a day earlier.[22] One case involved using an 11-year-old boy as a human shield, by forcing him to enter suspected buildings first and also inspect bags. The report also mentioned the boy was used as a shield when Israeli soldiers came under fire.[22][23] The Guardian has also received testimony from three Palestinian brothers aged 14, 15, and 16, who all claimed to have been used as human shields.[24]

The UK newspaper The Guardian conducted an investigation of its own, which, according to the paper, uncovered evidence of war crimes including the use of Palestinian children as human shields.[25] An Israeli military court later convicted two Israeli soldiers of using human shields,[26] which was outlawed by the Israeli Supreme court in 2005.[25]

The UN fact-finding mission investigated four incidents in which Palestinian civilians were coerced, blindfolded, handcuffed and at gunpoint to enter houses ahead of Israeli soldiers during military operations. The mission confirmed the continued use of this practice with published testimonies of Israeli soldiers who had taken part in the military operations. The mission concluded that these practices amounted to using civilians as human shields in breach of international law. Some civilians were also questioned under threat of death or injury to extract information about Palestinian combatants and tunnels, constituting a further violation of international humanitarian law.[27]"

What's the appropriate response to the missile attack and Hamas incursion into Israel and slaughter that followed that Israel should take in your mind?

What is the appropriate response the US should have taken in response to 9/11?

How do you factor geopolitical realities into your reasoning? That is if your enemies see you as weak they may feel emboldened to attack you and bring you down. So, for instance, if Israel just absorbed the attack what does that tell Hezbollah, Iran, and others in the region about Israel's willingness to defend itself? Does it embolden other to attack Israel (again)?

I'm fine with your moral judgments. But I'm not sure how your moral judgments are informative or useful to the realities of the world without an explanation.

How should Israel respond. Not by doing war crimes?

You are, in a more reasonable way, creating justifications for carpet bombing civilians. To look strong in front of Iran, I guess is a justified reason to do that.

I don't know man. Having 2 million people that you forced off their land in a giant heavily blockaded prison camp creates some dilemmas. Maybe it's a bad idea to do that in the first place?

oh ashtar isn't concerned with the realities on the ground if it doesn't give him a chance to reinforce his false sense of superiority

Okay. So give me a list of say 5 ways Israel should respond now and in doing so say what a legitimate objective is.

I am doing no such thing as justifying carpet bombing. Absolutely did not I not say that and that is an interpolation you are making on your very own.

What I have done is raise to salience the challenges that a state faces in defending its citizens from being murdered by a group--democratically elected or not--that very much wants to see your kind wiped from the Earth.

As I mentioned in my post below, it's not even clear that Hamas represents a majority of Palestinians.

But let's say it does. Well, it bears some responsibility for their plight. How much? Open to debate. Does Israel bear more responsibility? I'll accept whatever the facts are on this.

However, the facts are also such that Israel should respond and has a moral duty to protect its people. Given this fact the debate is what is appropriate.

It's a separate issue whether Bibi is a war monger and a bigot in his own right. Maybe so.

Again, whether he resigns or not, Israel has a duty to defend its citizens. You raise the point that Israel has another duty: Protect Palestinians (presumably not those in Hamas or its material supporters?). Good. That's all find. I accept that constraint. With that constraint, then, what is appropriate? What is the scope of response that is warranted by Israel?

And don't just wave your hands and offer vague rhetorical questions. It's a hard fucking moral problem. Your moral claims against Israel are fine for the sake of conversation here. But given those claims, and the supposition they are a constrain on acceptable behavior, the challenge for you is to articulate a policy that Israel should be taking as a government right now that both recognizes its right to defense (including geopolitical realities) and the moral concerns for Palestinians.

my sense of superiority isn't false

Do your research. Israel is responsible for the creation of Hamas so you have a convenient enemy for far right war chest thumping but they got too powerful and they couldn’t control them as is the norm like with Osama bin Laden and training him to fight the Russians only have him 911 our asses later

It's a hard practical problem. It's a very simple moral problem.

This is like asking how the US in 1866 should respond to attacks from the Lakota. They should stop stealing their land, respect their sovereignty, and pursue a political peace.

Israel should abide by international law, remove illegal settlements, and stop occupying Palestinian land. They should end the blockade of Gaza. They should stop occupying the west bank, east Jerusalem, and the Golan Heights. They should turn over their personnel who have committed war crimes to an appropriate international tribunal. They should stop committing war crimes and killing civilians as collective punishment. They should allow full political rights and free movement to all people within their borders, which would mean abandoning their ethno-state project, or they should pursue a two state solution. They should provide massive aid the the population in Gaza, as should the US.

Here's a video of Israel bombing a convoy of feeling civilians. 70 people died. This is what you are justifying. You know, geopolitical realities and all that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uf9KBgWcQfQ

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/14/gaza-civilians-afrai d-to-leave-home-after-bombing-of-safe-routes
https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZT8hjpat6/

Many people have tried to pigeonhole(to try and mold me or change my mind about something) my ideals and what I stand for but I swear you don’t know me, so please do not make speculations on how smart or dumb I am, that’s a really shit ass statement to make to begin with, and it also has happened to lower my respect for you

Here's evidence that I think suggests tempering or reevaluating the strength of one's blame assignment to Israel:

via Twitter:
Dovid Efune
@Efune
I have now directed coverage of 4 Israeli wars in Gaza and this is the 5th.

In each, an average of 20-25% of Hamas rockets fired from Gaza fall short and land in Gaza, often killing Gazan civilians.

These deaths are all blamed on Israel by Hamas’s Gaza Health Ministry, parroted by major media outlets.

So far, over 6000 rockets have been fired. Some 1500 will have fallen short.

How many of the Gaza deaths blamed on Israel were actually caused by Hamas rockets?

---------------

To be clear the above is only presented as evidence that because there seems to be reason to think Palestinians are killed by Hamas rockets and not by Israeli rockets that some of the blame and the amplitude of the blame that is directed as Israel is not completely warranted.

Casualcollapse, you still left this page titled "Israel doing a genocide," and I believe any assertions I made about you stand as pretty fucking spot on for as long as you leave that grossly inaccurate title in place here.

If this report is accurate, then it looks like a hospital bombed in Gaza is the result of a Hamas rocket. "HAMAS sent rocket to #Haifa that blew up the #hospital in Gaza and a stockpiled munitions that were above the Baptist Hospital in Gaza"

https://twitter.com/ilyaaiz/status/1714365987565211852

The above tweet has a video attached. The person tweeting labels the tweet "HAMAS FAIL" indicating bias on their part. But the video if legit evidences my above comment.

I saw the video of the hospital bombing and the explosion is way too big to be a hamas rocket.

It was large ordnance.

Isreal constantly blames Palestinians for the IDFs crimes against humanity until the second the evidence become undeniable. Then they do a half assed “sorry you’re sad about the dead people” statement and punish no one.

The crater is pretty small in the hospital parking lot. Nothing like a jdam. The video I linked to is too far away to determine what caused the explosion, i.e., whether other combustibles were involved. I've seen conflicting reports by OSINTEL folks on what is likely responsible. I've seen OSINTEL reports suggest what you are suggesting, while also saying we don't know enough, and others suggesting it's not likely from Israeli ordinance given the size of the crater.

Here are some links
https://twitter.com/Schizointel/status/1714430078929588239
https://twitter.com/Osinttechnical/status/1714587746612740278< br /> https://twitter.com/Osinttechnical

you are right it was preemptive , I will will until all the children are dead from dehydration to label it a genocide

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/10/20/what-have-open-source-vi deos-revealed-about-the-gaza-hospital-explosion

The munition came from the direction of Israeli controlled territory. Israel released audio that was determined to be faked. Israel posted a video that was from after the bombing, then deleted it.

A fair reading is that the evidence is inconclusive. The IDF is not a reliable source of information.

Oh I'll add, as an outsider, it seems to me the Jewish concern that babies and children are being murdered is not simply or merely an emotive propaganda concern to stir sympathy in the hearts of Westerners, but that killing babies and children suggests a genocidal intention that Jew people are very well attuned to identify. Killing babies and children is to reduce the size of future generations of Jews. So even if some of the reports aren't accurate I'm not going to assume some (Jewish) conspiracy. It seems reasonable, even if not accurate in the fog of war, to be quite concerned the possibility.

Jewish* people. Sorry not "Jew people" yeesh.

Laying down in pile that would be mildly inconvenient for an IDF tank to get over

Hamas supposedly took out 14 of those shitty Merkava tanks that the Israeli fascists were so proud of lol

Hamas probably wanted this reaction, as they’re more likely to get other ME countries to fight Israel if Israel just starts doing open genocide, which the IDF was just itching for an excuse to do.

It's Hamas’ only realistic chance of beating Israel, with how disproportionate the power balance is.

Or Hamas just wanted to kill some Israelis with the boys and didn’t think the IDF would be so massively incompetent. They were maybe hoping to kill tens or maybe a hundred people before getting gunned down.

An opinion in NY Times suggests that that Hamas likely figured it goad Israeli into an invasion of Gaza where it, Hamas, could have an advantage due to the many, many miles of tunnels it operates, allowing it to win a war of attrition.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/11/opinion/international-world /gaza-israel-palestinians-invasion.html

Hamas just shook the Israeli military to it's core; there have already been leaks that the Israeli government does not have confidence that it's military could actually occupy Gaza, and that was before they just got humiliated. That's why they rely so heavily on air power.

Hamas wants a ground invasion, and/or raids to rescue hostages. Because Hamas knows that this will result in more public humiliations for the IDF.